Sponsor husband Kitas work

Discussion in 'Visas, Permits and Immigration' started by Lavergne, Jan 1, 2018.

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  1. Lavergne

    Lavergne New Member

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    Hello,
    I got really confuse reading all information about having a Kitas sponsor suami and our right/no right to work.
    I don't know if as expat wife we have the same right than expat husband.
    So I want to re-open a post to get clear answer for us, wife of indonesian men with a kitas sponsor husband, are we allowed to work ?
    If yes wich work can be allowed/forbidden?

    Thank you so much for the one whom will give me those precious information !
     
  2. Bad_azz

    Bad_azz Well-Known Member Charter Member Cager

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    The Indonesian law in this matter states Orang Asin - it is not gender specific. It applies equally to men & women.
    My local immigration officer tried to tell me as a "wife" that things were different for me. & he was in the wrong.

    If you are on a spouse sponsored ITAS/ITAP you can work as per the wording of the law.
    Obviously some specialist areas are forbidden if you aren't qualified- for example- if you want to be a lawyer but are not qualified, & even if you are, other regulations might not permit you working in that field.
    Then there are the regulations for who can employ you- so certain tiers of companies cannot employ foreigners.
    But then there is the whole deabate about if one is a foreigner (as per the wording of the work permit) , when on a permanent resident spouse sponsored visa.
    Some of these things have not been tested in the courts and I think most of us don't want to be the first test case.

    Safe work- freelancing is pretty safe
    private language tutoring is pretty safe
    hubby opening a business & you having a role in it is pretty safe... without more details from you re what it is you hope to do makes it harder to advise in detail.

    You could look up & into Indonesian laws & spend time learning for yourself about these things. U_U & then a number tells you it is a law. Usually/always with a year in the heading- try to look at laws from this century though. As the older ones have often been updated.
     
  3. Lavergne

    Lavergne New Member

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    Ok thank you Bad_azz,
    Pretty clear, with unclear law it's a game of luck.
    So now I know there is no difference between men and women in indonesian law... Interesting how you get different t information about it!
    When you said freelance do you really think about all freelance kind of job ?would you think that I could legally work as dive master freelance or yoga instructor freelance ? In the area I live it's the only job we have, working with tourism.
     
  4. Bad_azz

    Bad_azz Well-Known Member Charter Member Cager

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    Probably fine with yoga, I have no idea about diving- PM Atlantis a link to this thread, he might know more on that matter. I can't think who else in here would - maybe Wisnu.
     
  5. Lavergne

    Lavergne New Member

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    Ok thank you much for your answer I will Pm atlantis now
     
  6. dafluff

    dafluff
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    Hi and welcome to the forum!

    The "official" word that some immigration officers have given is that on a spousal KITAS/P you can do any work that does not require an employer, such as freelance instructions, buying and selling online, playing music etc. The explanation for this is that employers need to apply for IMTA and follow a bunch of rules if they hire foreign workers (tenaga kerja asing), but you are allowed to work.

    Incidentally, this is not correct, since "tenaga kerja asing" is a specific term, and holders of spousal KITAS/P are not "tenaga kerja asing". Therefore there is no such restriction for spousal KITAS/P holders. Of course, convincing employers is another matter altogether.
     
  7. atlantis

    atlantis
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    @Lavergne,
    Miss Bad_azz has already done a good job answering you.

    She is absolutely right (save perhaps for the "Orang Asin";)) to stress the fact that there is no gender discrimination in the Law. Both male and female are treated equally.

    Article 61 of the Immigration Law (UU 6/2011) stipulates that ANY holder of an ITAS or an ITAP sponsored by an Indonesian spouse (ie: suami atau istri) may work and/or do business in order to satisfy his/her living needs and/or his/her family living needs.

    Basically it means that you can not only work to feed your family but, and it is important, in case of a divorce or death of the Indonesian spouse and assuming that you are eligible to keep your ITAS/ITAP, you can continue to work/do business to satisfy your living needs.

    Basically as long as your ITAS/ITAP which has been issued because of your legal marriage with an Indonesian is still valid, you keep this right. It is attached to the type of ITAS/P you has been issued, NOT with the fact that you remain married or that your husband/wife is still alive. It's a very important point to keep in mind. Those of us who have cumulated 10 years+ of marriage have a very strong ground.

    This article of Law, since passed in May 2011, has been widely commented, often by people with little clue about Indonesian Law.

    Worse, I have read people saying "I've asked/I will ask my Notaris... blablabla..." as if Notaris would have any knowledge of either the Immigration Law or the Manpower Law or would have ever attended a session in an Indonesian Court of Justice.

    I have also heard/read comments as silly as: "you can work but you should not make much money". Really? How someone who pretend having some kind of Education can peddle such inanities is beyond me. But if you check the archives of Expat forums you may find similar comments. As if an Indonesian panel of judge would take in consideration your income to decide if you have broken the law or as if a prosecutor would assess what should be considered your personal or family living needs.

    The law doesn't say that you should be able to have a bowl of rice and a three inches ikan deho but no more. The Law says that you may provide for your family. Only you and your spouse can define what are the family needs. Not a judge, not a prosecutor, not an Immigration officer or Manpower civil servant. Also, the exact wording of art. 61 is "keluarganya". What is the legal definition of "keluarganya"? Does it includes your mother, father or brots and sis who may also depend on you financially? The argument of "we may work but only make small money" is just ludicrous.

    Now the Law (both the Immigration Law and Manpower Law) also say that, despite having the right of work, you can't be considered as a Tenaga Kerja Asing (a foreign worker) and therefore, as the Law stands at the moment, it rules you out of the list of those who can be concerned by an IMTA (the employment permit issued to companies for a foreigners). This may sound innocuous, but it is of the utmost importance for us, foreigners holding an ITAS/P sponsored by an Indonesian spouse. A company should NOT have an IMTA issued for a foreigner who is holding an ITAS/P sponsored by his/her spouse.

    We should not be issued an IMTA and anyway criteria to have an IMTA issued to a foreigners are far too restrictive to accommodate article 61 UU 6/2011. Basically a foreigner concerned by an IMTA should be fluent in Bahasa Indonesia, should have a certain number of years of experience in his/her field of work, should have a certain credential/diploma attesting he/she his an expert, should be assisted by a certain number of Indonesian worker to whom he/she should transmit his/her knowledge and last, he/she should be working for a PT, which rules out a lot of type of companies we could work for in order to satisfy our living needs and the one of our family. If we would be considered TKA, and therefore concerned by an IMTA, many/most of us would de facto be denied their right to provide for their family. This would be a gross infringement of art.61 UU 6/2011.

    So... can we work anywhere, as we please? As BA already explained a certain number of Laws regulate professions and some of these professions are therefore out of reach to us. For example, we can't be doctors without having the proper cred and an izin to be a practitioner can't be issued to WNA...etc. We can't claim that these specific regs infringe our right to work/do business to satisfy the living needs of the family because there are still a LOT of option/work available to us. You can't claim seriously that you MUST be a doctor and nothing else.

    Can you be a dive master freelance or free lance yoga instructor? Theoretically and technically you should be allowed to do so. However, I can tell you that Nakertrans (the Manpower posse) will not see it kindly. The reason is simple: money.

    First, they have been used for decades to levy USD 1200 per foreign head per year from companies employing foreign instructors. And now you will have to explain them all the above and that their Ministry should find other ways to finance them. Good luck.

    Second, most people at the lower levels in Nakertrans freak out whenever they hear that prices in the Diving industry are quoted in USD. When they hear that a diving day is charged over USD 100, they think it's only profit for you. They don't think cost and they don't give a rat's ass about your Diving Education and the fact that you've poured X thousand of dollars to become a PADI (or whatever) Instructor. They just see that the company or you are charging USD 100 per day per head and they definitely think that there is room for a share for them. Then starts the hassles.

    Though you shouldn't be restricted I believe it is much better to avoid being directly confrontational. In the past 6 years+ I have always made my kantor Imigrasi and my regional nakertrans office aware of all my activities. I have also explained them politely my point and I have tried to have them feel, without saying it, that should they disagree with my point, neither my wife not I were willing to bow.

    Personally, I don't mind to be the first test case in court concerning art. 61 UU 6/2011. There are so many articles of law to build up a defense that what worries me the most is the time I will have to sacrifice to just pick a few.
     
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  8. Bad_azz

    Bad_azz Well-Known Member Charter Member Cager

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    Hahaha- sorry, typo there. :)
     
  9. Lavergne

    Lavergne New Member

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    Thanks for all this information, as clear as frustrated !
    Legally yes I'm allowed to work but in the real life any immigration officer could make it difficult for me if he wants to. Amazing :)
    So if I follow your advice I should maybe go to immigration kantor and ask the officer what I'm allowed to do as work ?
    I don't have any job at the moment but I couldn't stay forever doing nothing that's for sur.
    But freelancing could be the best option as your not attached to any company, I guess?
    I also hear many time that with a Kitas sponsor spouse you are just allowed to work for your husband... Now I have to understand it is not true ?
    And I also hear many time that with a Kitas sponsor spouse you are not allowed to work but with a kitaP sponsor spouse you are allowed to work, but the law doesn't make any difference between kitaS and KitaP on that point right ?
     
  10. dafluff

    dafluff
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    This is true for everything in Indonesia, not just working, and not just immigration officers.

    That would be a tremendous waste of time. :D. First, most immigration officers themselves don't know. And second, nothing they say can be held accountable at a later date.

    This is indeed what most people do.

    Correct, this is not true. There is no law or regulation that says the above.

    The law makes no distinction between spousal (and ex-WNI) KITAS or KITAP. They're both mentioned in the same paragraph that authorizes work. (Article 61, Law no 6, 2011).
     
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  11. lifelongexpat

    lifelongexpat Active Member Cager

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    I found it strange when I picked up my Vitas in Singapore last September. My visa sticker clearly states that work is prohibited.

    IMG_20180103_171845.JPG

    Would this be until the Vitas is converted into the ITAS or am I missing something?
     
  12. dafluff

    dafluff
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    I'm guessing this is just a sloppy translation of "dengan maksud tidak berkerja", which is correct, as the main intent of the visa is to unite families.
     
  13. Jamu

    Jamu Member Charter Member Cager

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    This is a very good question and I think we need a better explanation than dafluff's guess (no disrespect intended).
     
  14. Bad_azz

    Bad_azz Well-Known Member Charter Member Cager

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    My 2 cents worth: A stamp on a document in English is not going to obfuscate a law made in Indonesia.
     
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  15. steveandpenny

    steveandpenny Active Member Cager

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    Couple of things and not being negaive, but where will you be located at and I assue your are certified dive instructor / dive master though padi or ssi. In big dive areas there is a abundance of dive guides that work cheap. What is a big plus (not being sexist) is that you are a female and I'm guessing fluent in English. I know that can be a big saleing point. Understand most of the money that is made is in tips so make sure that who ever is hiring you that it' ok to get tips directly. A lot of dive outfits collect all the tips and at A disturbed once a month and have no idea how that would work on a freelance guide. Also of course you will really need to be aware of the dive sites and be able to spot small things .
    Another idea that I know a person does here is they freelance though a dive travel agent hiring out as a personal dive guide. You got to be really good for that and not sure how the money works with that. Seeing the agent is in the states and sends the money to the dive guide.
    Those are just thoughts and good luck
     
  16. Lavergne

    Lavergne New Member

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    @lifelongexpat
    I don't have this on mine...

    @theothers,
    Sorry for late answer and thanks to give us access to indonesian law, two more question,
    If I found a job or start doing freelance, should I say it to any officer if they ask me ? Or better to do t show it?

    Where do you found those law articles?
     
  17. dafluff

    dafluff
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    Basically this. There has been no law written that overrides the right to work spelled out in Article 61, Law no 6, 2011. The stamp is literally against the law.

    Another possible explanation was already suggested by @lifelongexpat , that it applies to the VITAS and not KITAS. This could be possible, since VITAS is a visa (ijin masuk), and the right to work is given to those who hold a stay permit (ijin tinggal).

    Anyway, I am not expecting an official answer anytime soon... :doh:
     
  18. ChrisD

    ChrisD New Member

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    Also be aware if you are working freelance in a area with lots of competition, expect to be hassled and dobbed in to immigrasi by oppos thinking you are taking their business. It may also happen more than once.

    You may be legal, but it can be a real hassle.

    As a CYA, I would visit immigrasi and speak to a senior and get confirmation that your proposed work is legal.

    If they can put it in writing fine :) If not, get their contact details.

    Then if you get a visit by Immigrasi, you can show the written confirmation or say, I checked with X on this date and they confirmed this work is within my visa rules.
     
  19. lifelongexpat

    lifelongexpat Active Member Cager

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    A shame when a bit of healthy competition has many benefits:

    images (7).jpeg
     
  20. Jamu

    Jamu Member Charter Member Cager

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    Perhaps, but you can be damn sure it would be used against you if the authorities decided to do so, and good luck arguing otherwise when the prohibition is stated in black and white, in English.
     
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