Kitap complications.

Discussion in 'Visas, Permits and Immigration' started by harryopal, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Before arriving in Indonesia my Indonesian wife and I registered our marriage with the the Indonesian Consul in Sydney, and organized a Sosbud visa. We arrived in Bali in March of 2017 year. My Indonesian wife then applied for a Kitas spouse sponsored visa. After the usual toing an froing to various offices in Jimbaran and Renon I duly received a Kitas visa in July last year.

    As we had been staying at a Kos In Jimbaran we began looking for accommodation and found a suitable house in the same region at Jalan Bukit Hijau moving in December 2017. My wife visited the Pemertinatah Kecematan Kuta Selatan and obtained a Surat Keterangan Tempat Tinggal Sementara and this document was included with our Kitap application.

    As we have been married 5 years we decided to then apply for Kitap. My wife completed and provided the various documents necessary for Kitap which were examined at some length at the Immigration offices in Jimbaran at the end of March this year and we were told all was in order and to pay the fee of Rp 5. 505. 000 which we did. We had two interviews where we are living at Jalan Bukit Hijau where again everything seemed to be in order. Then on Tuesday we had another visit from two officers from Renon who said their were some anomalies. As the discussion was in Bahasa Indonesian I had little idea as to what were the problems. After the officers left, and talking with my wife, it seemed that an Indonesian Consul stamp dated 16th of January 2017 on our Queensland marriage certificate was seen as the date of our marriage although the document clearly states our marriage taking place on the 8th April 2013.

    We rang and arranged a meeting this morning at the Renon offices where I pointed out that the marriage certificate and Indonesian Consul certificate clearly state our marriage as 8th April 2013. I pointed out the consulate stamp dated 27th of April 2017 was simply a notification as to our document received by the consul.

    We were told that the immigration law requires 2 years from notification although I saw a paragraph in their rules that indicated a minimum of 2 year's marriage. It was suggested the application for Kitap might be rejected as there had been less than two years since the marriage was registered with the consul.

    If that rule is in fact what is required I can't help but wonder why weren't we advised of that when the documents were first presented and before being asked to pay the Rp 5.5 juta fee. Another anomaly was that one of my wife's documents had her earlier residing at Kos 168 and my residence was shown as Jalan Bukit Jimbaran. Given that we have had visits from Immigration at our residence where clearly we are living together it seems odd that this matter had not been raised previously.

    The long and the short of it is that this morning we were told the application will be forwarded to Jakarta for a decision. I should mention that all these meetings were cordial and friendly without any impatience shown by myself or wife.

    For those fully conversant with Indonesian Immigration rules, I have this question: Is eligibility for Kitas based on a minimum of 2 years or marriage or 2 years of registration with an Indonesian consul or authority?
     
  2. Davita

    Davita Well-Known Member Charter Member

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    Harry I'm not quite following your situation.
    You clearly identify you were married in Sydney on 8 April 2013...but you then say...."After the officers left, and talking with my wife, it seemed that an Indonesian Consul stamp dated 16th of January 2017 on our Queensland marriage certificate was seen as the date of our marriage although the document clearly states our marriage taking place on the 8th April 2013.
    When did you register your Indonesian marriage to the RI Embassy/Consul in Queensland.? It appears, according to your info, that did not occur until 27 April 2017.....4 years later! If that is correct I can see why the RI immigration are concerned about the real date of your marriage.
    When I was married to an Indonesian in Hong Kong it was registered, signed, sealed and witnessed in the Hong Kong Marriage Registration Office. The very next day we flew to Jakarta and had it registered, signed, sealed and witnessed in the RI Registrar of Marriage in Jakarta....as my wife then was an Indonesian Citizen.

    I cannot for the life of me understand why I'd wait 4 years to complete such an important transaction.
     
  3. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Davita, thanks for the response. Well, it would seem, in our ignorance we had not understood the importance of immediate notification to the Consul and thought it just a formality that had to be done before applying for Sosbud etc. I take it then that two years notification is required to be eligible for Kitap?

    Actually we had originally notified the consul and received a certificate in August 2016. When being married, my wife was asked her surname which she doesn't have in the way westerners use a surname so she was married as Widayati Rosma. She later became concerned that her passport is Rosma Widayati and thought this might create problems. We then officially had our Australian certificate amended and also advised the consul in 2017. The certificate from the Consul has the original notification date of August 2016 so theoretically the notification has been in place for 2 years,
     
  4. Chiron

    Chiron Member

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    In reading the above story, what I'm not understanding is how your KITAS was validated in the first place, as that also required a valid marriage certificate. I'm assuming it was the same one, with the stamp from the Embassy in Queensland. If you received a valid KITAS from that, then why wouldn't that also qualify for the KITAP?? I guess you're wondering the same thing.

    As for me, I'm not quite ready for the KITAS/KITAP experience, but it's coming soon enough. In our case, we were married 2002 in Houston, Texas. At that time, there were no plans to even think about living in Indonesia - but that's now changed. Back in 2002 we went down to the RI/Houston consulate a couple months after the official marriage to have my wife's Indonesian passport updated with her new last name, as she was going back home on a trip shortly after that. We didn't want to have any confusion between the green card (US permanent residency), and the passport for getting back into the USA. The consul staff drew a line with a blue pen on one of the passport pages, wrote her new name by hand with the same pen, and stamped over the writing. Amazingly, that worked for years until that passport expired, making several trips back and forth. As far as we knew, that was all we needed to have our marriage documented. However, that wasn't exactly the case...

    Since then, she's had two more passport renewals, and then we decided to get serious about retirement, becoming an expat, living in Indonesia, KITAS/KITAP's etc. On this very forum, someone (I believe @dafluff) recommended that we get our marriage officially registered in Indonesia by getting a Surat Keterangan Nikah, as we would need that for the our KITAS process. We spoke with staff at the RI Houston Consulate, and they agreed. We took our notarized US marriage certificate to the consulate, along with some extra copies, filled out a form, and left everything there. About a week later they gave us a document showing a verification of our USA marriage details (date, place, etc.). On our next Indonesia trip, we took that document to Solo on November, 2017. We went to Surakarta Wali Kota (city hall), filled out more forms, made more copies of birth and marriage certificates, provided official notarized translations for everything that was in English, and paid a small fee. After about two weeks, they handed us our Surat Keterangan Nikah showing our marriage to be fully registered in Indonesia from 2002 in Houston. I'm told that this serves as fully proving our marriage for whatever official process we need it for.

    Just to note, our original Houston marriage certificate has never been stamped. We did however, give them an official notarized copy of the certificate - which they kept in Solo. In any case, I'm hoping that this will suffice for the KITAS/KITAP process. I'm wondering if this is something you may want to consider as well, in case the Jakarta decision doesn't go your way.
     
  5. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Chiron, confronted with all this kind of stuff my brain just wants to go to sleep. The question was not about the validity of being married but for Kitap we understood that I would be eligible if we were married for more than two years. However, it was said to us that the marriage notification had to be more than two years. So for us it is a bit up in the air. In your case it sounds like you are fully covered.
     
  6. jstar

    jstar Mr. 10,000

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    This is the problem:

    (2) Untuk mendapatkan Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b diberikan setelah usia perkawinannya mencapai 2 (dua) tahun dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada Pemerintah Republik Indonesia.

    From UU 6/2011.

    The interpretation is about the AND relationship. So you need to be married for two years but also have signed the statement. I wouldn’t be surprised if another Immigration office would not take the ‘signing date’ as start date of the two years.


    :frusty:
     
  7. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Jstar, thanks. Yes, it seems to be a matter of interpretation. I hope that any reasonable assessment would approve the visa but I guess we shall just have to wait and see what comes back from Jakarta. Mind you I wouldn't be thrilled about losing the Kitap fee payment and starting again means many many more visits to and fro to the immigration offices. Thanks again.
     
  8. atlantis

    atlantis
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    The problem isn't here, jstar. The problem is that, although they married in 2013, they registered the marriage only on April 2017. Since the enactment of UU 6/2011 the interpretation of the "2 years of marriage" for those married outside Indonesia is to consider the valid date of marriage as April 2017. Keep in mind that before that date, under Indonesian law, Mrs harryopal was considered as single under Indonesian Law. For Imigrasi, on April 2019, Harryopal will be eligible for a KITAP. Jakarta, may decide to validate the ITAP but it would be surprising because they have consistently considered the date of registration as the date of marriage the civil union started.
     
  9. jstar

    jstar Mr. 10,000

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    Eh? That’s exactly what I said?!
     
  10. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Just to make things more confusing, we originally notified the consul of the marriage in August 2016 and that is what is on the certificate of notification provided by the consulate. The stamped 2017 date on our Queensland certificate copy occurred with changing the name of my wife to be consistent with the passport name.
    The amended certificate of notification from the Consul has the amended name but still with the 15th of August 2016 shown as the date of notification. Ironically, with the marriage registered, we need not have included the copy of the Queensland marriage certificate with the Consul copy stamped 2017 as this is what created the uncertainty. Had we just provided a copy of the original Queensland marriage certificate along with the Consul provided certificate of notification showing 15th August it would probably would have passed.
    However, it is easy to be wise after the event.
    For what it is worth, I have posted all this detail in case of it is of interest for those seeking to grasp the intricacies of Kitap applications.
     
  11. Jamu

    Jamu Member Charter Member Cager

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    Harryopal I have a different question concerning your application - does your wife have her KTP and KK registered in Bali, or is she using the SKTTS to prove her domicile in Bali? My understanding was that a WNI without a Bali KTP can sponsor their spouse for KITAS in Bali using the SKTTS or KIPS, but needs to change their KTP address to Bali in order to support the spouse's KITAP application.
     
  12. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Sorry Jamu, football finals (Aussies rules) got in the way of a prompt reply. My wife is using the SKTTS.
     
  13. scouser59

    scouser59 Member Charter Member Cager

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    Interesting , last year in bali at immigration jimbaran, kitas kitap conversion required ktp bali , so they now accept sktts .
    :dizzy: :doh:
    The only thing constant here is change
     
  14. Davita

    Davita Well-Known Member Charter Member

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    If I were an Indonesian Immigration Officer working in the Australian Embassy/Consul my immediate reaction would be.... "here's another breaking the rules by trying to keep an RI Passport AND also get a PR from Australia."
    This can be achieved by not registering the wedding in the RI Embassy/Consul until until after +/- 4 years in which time the PR would have been issued.

    I know people do this all the time and then get the OZ gutteral press to blame Indonesia for the consequences.

    If I'm wrong then I apologise.
     
  15. harryopal

    harryopal Active Member Charter Member

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    Good morning Davita,

    I take your point but I did apply for and obtained permanent residence for my wife so that we could come and go in and out of Australia without having to apply for a visa each time. And it also meant that she could remain with me in Australia while that visa was processed. I was aware that Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship but this was not our intention. Is it illegal to have a multi entry visa in Australia as an Indonesian citizen? The delay in registration was quite unrelated just that we had not been aware of the 2 year notification requirement.
     
  16. john madden

    john madden
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    Davita there is no conflict in having PR status for Australia and retaining one's Indonesian passport. It's standard practice.
     
  17. Davita

    Davita Well-Known Member Charter Member

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    Harry...it isn't any of my business how or why you took 4 years to register your wife's marriage to the Indonesian Registrar of Marriage in Australia but that is the requirement. My wife had to do that in Canada so we registered her marriage immediately. That was in 1992.

    If you do not follow a countries Immigration policies there could be consequences...as you are finding out. By then it is usually too late to try to blame the 3rd parties rules.

    The rule regarding being married for 2 years and having a concurrent 3 year susbud is the rule....I agree it's a pain as Immigration Officers here don't even know, never mind capable of applying their own rules.

    Who can apply for an ITAP?
    Indonesian Law is, in fact, quite clear. But as in many cases in Indonesia, this is more a problem of getting the right text of law with all of its amendments to clearly understand who can apply for to an ITAP. Once you get the right context, everything becomes very clear and the only remaining difficulty is to explain the law to the ones who are supposed to know it: the Immigration officials. Once you get past the lower echelons, things are much smoother, because at the higher levels (i.e., KanWil or DitJen), they know the law regarding ITAP issuance.

    ITAP can be issued to:
    • Expatriate spouses of Indonesian citizens (after you have been married for 2 years and after holding a KITAS for 3 years in a row). If you have been married more than 10 years, the KITAP is valid for life, even if the expat/indonesian couple divorces.
    • Foreign investors or primary shareholder of PT / PMA companies
    • High ranking employees of Indoensain companies (usually director or commissioner)
    • Retirees (age 55 or older)
    • Former Indonesian citizens who want to reclaim their Indonesian nationality
    Concerning ITAP, here are the two main articles of Law No. 6 of 2011 on Immigration that govern this stay permit:

    1. Pasal 54 / Article 54:
    1. A Permanent Residence Permit may be given to:
      1. a foreign national who holds a Temporary Residence Permit as a religious cleric/missionary, expatriate worker, investor, or retiree;
      2. a member of a mixed marriage family;
      3. the husband, wife, and/or child of a foreign national who holds a Permanent Residence Permit; and
      4. a foreign national who is a former Indonesian citizen or held dual citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia and another country........and

    2. Pasal 60 / Article 60:

    For an applicant as intended in Article 54 paragraph (1) letter a, the Permanent Residence Permit is issued after the applicant has stayed for 3 (three) years consecutively and signed a Statement of Integration to the Government of the Republic of Indonesia.


    Basically, Article 60 means that an ITAS can be transformed to an ITAP and that this transformation of status can be given after a demand of the foreigner with the condition that he/she has already stayed a minimum of three full successive years in Indonesia since the date that his/her ITAS has been issued.

    Pasal 59 / Article 59 - regarding extensions

    (1) A Permanent Residence Permit is issued for a period of 5 (five) years and may be extended for an unlimited period insofar as the permit has not been cancelled.(2)The holder of a Permanent Residence Permit for an unlimited period as intended in paragraph (1) must report to an Immigration Office every 5 (five) years and is not subject to a fee.

    This is the article of law which lists the category of ITAS holder that could be entitled to be issued an ITAP. They are:

    a. investors
    b. rare foreign experts
    c. top foreign manager of a company
    d. foreign churchmen with religious duties
    e. foreign spouse joining an Indonesian husband or wife more info
    f. legitimate child who holds a foreign passport joining an Indonesian parent
    g. foreign spouse of a foreigner holding an ITAP
    h. legitimate unmarried foreign child (under 18 years old) joining a foreign father/mother who is an ITAP holder.
    i. Former Indonesian willing to regain Indonesian citizenship as per Citizenship law number 12/2006
    j. Retired foreigner
     
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  18. Davita

    Davita Well-Known Member Charter Member

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    I didn't say that but, if the marriage is NOT registered in the RI Embassy/Consul, then the marriage, according to Indonesian law, is not concluded.
     
  19. atlantis

    atlantis
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    @Davita,
    May I kindly ask you from what source you took this paragraph (and the subsequent) from? In fact I am the one who wrote these lines in May 2011 soon after the enactment of UU 6/2011. It was in a succession of posts explaining the then new law, chapter by chapter. Your source has just redacted my usual typos and bad grammar. :) Though I have an idea where you got it, I guess they (she) didn't quote their (her) source, as usual. I just would like to make sure of it.
     
  20. Chiron

    Chiron Member

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    I'm quite interested in this thread, and still not clear on a couple fine points.

    If you have a (recently registered - within one year) Surat Keterangan Nikah (SKN), as I mentioned above from my trip last year, showing that you've been married for 16 years:

    1. Does that suffice for the 10 year requirement?
    2. Does it also suffice for the 2 year requirement?
    3. In other words, does the clock start ticking when you finally received this document, or is it from the date of the marriage as shown on the SKN?
     
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